Adult Old House Borers will emerge from infested wood during the late summer months, usually July or August. To assess possible damage, keep an eye out for the following signs: If your tree has a wood borer infestation, you can use one of two methods to kill the tree borers: Photo Credit: https://e360.yale.edu/features/small-pests-big-problems-the-global-spread-of-bark-beetles. They are also fond of soft (sapwood) or untreated wood and can be common in untreated native timbers in older homes. You can spray hard surfaces with Hovex 2L Termite Defender to help control wood borer. Jewel Beetle larvae resemble Longicorn Beetle grubs but can be differentiated by an inverted V on the first segment of the thorax, which is lacking in Longicorn Beetle larvae. It's wonderful to have you join us, and thank you for sharing your question about borer beetles. Place mulch, supplemental water and fertilizers around the tree at times it helps in preventing the tree borers from causing harm to the tree. The adult Fruit-tree Borer moth is satiny-white and has a 30 mm to 50 mm wingspan. Spraying will achieve little as the ones that did the damage are gone and you have no idea whether others are present. The meaning of BORER is a tool used for boring. Loosing a semi-mature tree is always sad. This is most commonly used with beetle species, so as not to be confused with termites. They are also found from Southern Texas up through Washington state. Holes with frass, webbing, bark or sawdust in and around them. Another good way to treat your wood is by spraying it with a borate-containing surface spray such as Bora Care. Some Jewel Beetle species target specific plants for example, Jewel Beetles in the. Specially formulated with oils and surfactants to penetrate deep into wood. I have has two people look at it now ( not professional tree workers ) and their opinions are the same as mine. Welcome to Workshop. They then pupate before leaving the wood, creating holes. Apply or fill the cuts and from the pruning with prune paste. Regular maintenance is needed to ensure your house holds its value and remains safe and comfortable to live in. We have loads of helpful members sharing their experience and knowledge. The borer larvae will readily eat along the timber grain, creating a network of tunnels all the while remaining out of sight, undetected. First, you can't tell how deeply they've tunnelled into the wood. Join the Yates Garden Community to receive personalised monthly emails, and hear about exclusive promotions and giveaways. a marsipobranch fish, as a hagfish, that bores into other fishes to feed on their flesh. Rats are unsanitary and if someone complains you could get a visit from the environmental health officer. For this reason, if you decide to use a structural fumigation company, be sure that they have a rock solid reputation and will guarantee to "re-fumigate" if necessary at no additional charge. It may seem too easy, but borers are attracted to trees that are stressed and injured; pruning wounds are a common entry point for the first generation of invading borers. This is a pyrethroid that delivers a quick knockdown of insects on trees. Eucalypts, angophora, wattle, Myoporum and Xanthorrhoea. Excavators & Attachments, Accessed 18 Apr. Water based for improved safety around the home. Like hardwoods, radiata pine is susceptible but less frequently infested, with wood-borers preferring Baltic, New Zealand and hoop pine. Dip cloth in alcohol and rub it all over the cuts and trunk it prevents re-infestation from occurring. Guaranteed Lowest Prices Including Shipping - Anywhere On The Internet! Moisture control combined with a direct spray such as Totality or a wood preservative treatment such as Bora Care should be the first line of defense against this aggressive pest. But if it gets down to minus 30, and minus 30 used to be very common in the northern part of the state, youd expect about 90% of emerald ash borers to die.. Sawn timber is also more prone to borer attack than a smooth surface. Visit the Bunnings website for assistance from the customer service team. Keep bait down for at least 2 weeks after the last signs of activity. So a desperate last attempt to save the tree as its quite nice and provides shade, so hopefully i can get a pro opinion. past the penetration point, weakening limbs and branches that may snap with the first strong gust of wind. Tiny parasitic wasps may attack the eggs of wood boring moths. Jewel Beetle larvae are wood borers, but once again most species are not pests as they tend to attack unhealthy trees. Common borer females lay up to 100 eggs on the surface of bare timber or in old borer holes. The tunnelling of Wood Moth larvae may go unnoticed until exit holes are obvious. This site uses cookies to help us understand how visitors engage with our website. Keep out: Rats and mice only need a very small hole to get into your house. Coleoptera (Beetles) : Cerambycidae and Buprestidae, Lepidoptera (Moths) : Cossidae and Oecophoridae. Replaced by NO Borer Total Wood Protection Spray which is a water based, low odour fluid that uses formulated oils, surfactants and penetrants to give the penetration and long term protection of solvent based fluid. Spraying will achieve little as the ones that did the damage are gone and you have no idea whether others are present. Using a combination of contact insecticide treatment with Sylo Insecticide and a soil drench treatment of Dominion 2Lcan help to eliminate tree borers from your tree. Protects concrete surfaces from water damage and staining. Several drops of methylated spirits into the holes and then sealed with timbre sealer. This will kill any eggs and larvae remaining in the timber and offer residual protection from future infestation. It is best to cut off the branches and nearby mulches, grass, and cut all the unwanted decayed leaves and branches as short and trim as possible. If you find an exit hole, you will also find small frass pellets near the exit holes as well. These trees must be removed for the sake of safety because the tree is weakened and branches may snap and break off. Tree borer insects cause affected parts of trees to slowly weaken as their chewing severs vital transport tissues. For infested timber in buildings, its important to penetrate the timber and solvent carriers assist in this process, Mr DuBois explained. Injection through the exit holes will not work since those holes are basically "old" and the beetles have already escaped. Re: How to kill borer beetle in lemon tree? This is most commonly used with beetle species, so as not to be confused with termites. Two tooth borer can remain in the wood for up to 11 years before exiting in autumn. His attention was drawn to the borer, now dimly illuminated by its portable light, which had been secured to the door. The borers have gone in too deep and have laid eggs inside very difficult to get to. Prevent Appropriately fed and watered, healthy and vigorous plants are more likely to survive an attack than a stressed and weakened plant. The furniture beetle can severely damage pine flooring, panelling and furniture, although it rarely attacks roof beams due to the higher temperatures in roof voids. The trademark of the Cerambycidae beetle family is the long antennae found on each species. Specific brand names or commercial products or services do not imply endorsement. Borer. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/borer. Note: Any recommendations pertaining to the use of chemicals are for informational purposes only. You can opt out at anytime. Once the tree has been treated, we recommend a soil treatment with Dominion 2L. The rockets were slowly cut; the borer jarred at the bottom of its hole; again the disintegrators droned out. One moose, two moose. Invasive Bugs/Insects, 350 East 60th Street N.Sioux Falls, SD 57104, 2021 Diamond Mowers, LLC. Borer beetles are the most destructive insect that I'm familiar with next to termites. Safe and effective insecticide released as a vapour to penetrate all parts of the treatment area. I am a Bunnings team member. They are elongated and flattened beetles with short antennae unlike Longicorn Beetles that have very long antennae. Borer definition, a person or thing that bores or pierces. In this guide, we will show you what you can do to get rid of tree borers and what cultural practices you can use to keep tree borers from targeting your landscape tree. Plant other flowers during winter to avoid attracting the borers and keep the borers away. Borer-infested timber can be treated, but if timbers are severely weakened you should strengthen the timber or ultimately the timber may need to be replaced. Some Wood Moths are truly enormous with wing spans of 250 mm. All Rights Reserved, How to Get Rid of Tree Borers and Prevent Infestation, Wood Borer Control Solutions from Diamond Mowers, See How to Prevent Tree Borer Infestations, http://pnwhandbooks.dev.extension.oregonstate.edu/node/269/print, https://e360.yale.edu/features/small-pests-big-problems-the-global-spread-of-bark-beetles, Diamond Mowers Community: Customer Testimonials, Diamond Mowers Community: Employee Spotlight, Diamond Mowers Community: Dealer Spotlight. Once the active borers have been killed off, we recommend applying Dominion 2L via soil treatment around the tree for continued protection against tree borer damage and reducing the likelihood of future infestations. Any control method you use is always going to be more effective if you detect pests early (i.e., when their numbers are low). You may also see frass in the oozing sap. Termites are not generally common in New Zealand although there have been localised infestations. Advertisement. Sylo Insecticide is a synthetic pyrethroid insecticide that contains the active ingredient Cypermethrin and serves as a good contact insecticide that can prevent infestation of tree borers to infested trees and shrubs. To get rid of vermin you need to attack them on 3 fronts: Clean out: Mice like to nest in old newspapers, cupboards (airing or kitchen), spare rooms, insulation, basements and behind the oven or fridge. An adult female borer beetle will lay her eggs within susceptible timbers, the eggs then hatch into grubs (larvae, commonly called woodworm), which feed on the starch content of the timber. Primary invaders target healthy plants, which can lead to them weakening, or dying. oz. If you need further assistance, please let us know. Dominion 2L is a systemic insecticidewhich means the product is absorbed in through the roots and to the entire tree to control tree borers. Jewel Beetle larvae are legless creamy grubs, with a wide flattened thorax and a long body giving them an almost cobra-like appearance. Tree borers are not a specific insect type, but rather is a name to represent a group of insects that lays its eggs in the bark of a tree trunk and whose larvae eats on the wood and decays it from the inside. After you have confirmed that you are dealing with Tree Borers, you can then proceed with an inspection. Wood boring moth larvae may also be of concern in gardens, including the larvae of Wood Moths and the Fruit-Tree borerMaroga melanostigma. Sorry about your poor tree. Suitable to treat timbers and other surfaces Hovex Ultra Lo-Odour Termite Concentrate is a strong, simple solution for controlling termites and other insects around the home. The simplest way to do this is check your cut for a borer hole or tunnel. Black cockatoos may tear off large sections of bark and sapwood to feed on larvae in tunnels. Spraying insecticide on the tree will only kill the surface borers and will not reach the borers that are inside the tree. Eco-Organic Garden 250ml Eco-Neem Concentrate Botanical Insecticide. Chemical control should only be used as a last resort, as organic approaches are safer and more environmentally friendly. They can climb vertical surfaces, gnaw through walls and squeeze in through gaps around windows or doors. Their bright colours make them the most recognisable of all beetles. Larvae pupate in their exit tunnels until moths emerge and fly off to begin a new generation. Learn a new word every day. If you see evidence of borer in your weatherboards, there is a good chance the borer is more extensive than it seems. You can also sand and varnish wood that hasnt been infested. No matter the type, tree borers need to be eliminated quickly to save your infested tree or else you may have to remove the tree entirely. Also known as tree borers, wood borers feed on and make habitats from trees and other woody plants. 500ml concentrate makes 5 litres. When borers have been identified, Mr DuBois recommends the application of a permethrin-based residual insecticide. I'm sure it needs to be cut down as the holes have penetrated the centre of the trunk. Borer beetles are the most destructive insect that I'm familiar with next to termites. However, for your plants, I'd stick with products designed for that purpose. Over time, they may girdle trees or weaken branches to the point that they break under pressure. Oozing sap (gummosis): A stone fruit tree will have gummosis, sap oozing from its wounds, during a borer infestation. Many thanks for joining the community and please feel free to post anytime you need a hand with a project around the house or garden. Some borers are more damaging than others so identifying them is very important. The most common borer insects found in gardens are the larvae of Longicorn Beetles. A batch of old paint tree antiseptics, petroleum and diatomaceous earth-based products all can be used as prune paste. Wattles look particularly miserable when infested with Longicorn Beetle grubs. Most often, infestations are localized to one area, but this isnt always true. Concrete Stain. These miscreants can be either beetles or clearwing moths, but the end result is the same. For pest managers, early detection is the key,although this is very challenging. Sealing the saps and cuts heals the wounds of trees more quickly and prevents the tree borers from entering inside the trunk to damage the trunk. Dilute Dominion 2L at a rate of 0.1 to 0.4 fl. and made it favorable for tree borers to take over as they rarely infest healthy trees. Copyright 2023 BD Publications Pty Ltd ATF BDP Trust ABN 68 191 770 967 Privacy Policy. In-Stock Orders Placed By 3:00 PM CT Ship Today! They are often found on the south side of buildings or in floor timbers because these areas are prone to damp. Pay particularly close attention to tree trunks and tree branches. Residual insecticides like carbaryl, chlorpyrifos, lindane, and permethrin are designed to remain on tissues for many weeks, so that any insect that comes in contact with them will die immediately. Durable and water repellant. The most common wood borer in this family encountered in gardens is the native Fruit-tree borerMaroga melanostigma,which is found in all states of Australia. Lumber containing the chemical "creosote" is no longer available, but some of the newer wood preservatives that turn the wood green and are sold as "treated" lumber can help to ward off invading old house borers. Wood-boring insect species also attack different varieties of trees and bushes, so your plants may be more prone to certain borers than others. ), Paperbarks (Melaleucaspp. I have a white oak Tree about 25 ft tall that has a dozen borer holes in it. What was the first opinion you got? Often by the time the damage is noticed its too late and the borers have vacated the timber, he said. We offer a wide range of attachments for clearing trees and brush, mulching, and grinding stumps so you leave no food behind for borers. With a proactive approach to handling wood-boring insect infestation, you can defend your trees from both kinds of pests. Wood-boring beetles are insects whose larvae can live from two to five years within your home, eating through the wood until they destroy it completely. Once the larvae reach the weight of 200mg, they begin to make their way to the surface. Alternatively, as a fast acting liquid fertiliser that can be applied to the leaves and soil, tryYates Dynamic Lifter Liquid. For When 'Lowdown Crook' Isn't Specific Enough. Trees that are riddled with borer holes are past the point of saving. Seal holes around pipes with metal or cement, make sure doors and windows fit tightly and put in fine wire mesh across holes into basements. Borer like seasoned or moist untreated timber. Image above: Adult Longicorn Beetle (Image courtesy of Denis Crawford), Image above: Adult Longicorn Beetle on a tree trunk oozing sap caused by larvae (Image courtesy of Denis Crawford), 2023 Yates, a division of DuluxGroup (Australia) Pty Ltd, Yates Dynamic Lifter Soil Improver & Plant Fertiliser. For piles the Building Code Acceptable Solution requires timber treated to at least H5. Any type of localized treatment for Old House Borers should always be followed with regular inspections for new "exit" holes to determine if the infestation has spread or was never totally eliminated in the first place. Holes with frass, webbing, bark or sawdust in and around them. Any opinions or recommendations shared here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Bunnings. Wood-boring insects fall into two categories primary and secondary invaders. Sadly once they invade a piece of furniture or tree, it is next to impossible to get rid of them. Welcome to the Bunnings Workshop community. Their damage often runs deep so what you see may just be the tip of the iceberg. Consult a qualified arborist if a large tree looks sick and there are signs of borer activity. A way to get round this is to bait the traps but not set them for a few days so the rats get used to feeding from them. It is important to note that fumigating an entire building can become quite expensive, costing thousands of dollars. When the larvae have pupated and become adult beetles, they exit the timber through flight holes made in the timber's surface. The benefit of fumigation with fumigants such as "Vikane" are that the adult beetle and mature larvae forms of infestation can be totally eliminated with one treatment. The best way to handle a wood borer infestation is to stop it before it begins. In some cases, you may find the borer has entered the trunk, which means the tree may have to be severely pruned to a stump or removed entirely. A significant threat to wooden furniture and structural timber, the common furniture beetle is one of the more challenging pests to recognise and treat. There is a small black spot located near the centre of each white forewing. They are cream colored, often a grayish white, and feature dark mandibles and three eyes on each side of their head. Furniture can be treated by fumigation by a pest control company or by injecting the flight holes. Practice maintenance of your trees with pruning and mulching to prevent reinfestation. This moth family includes the Witchetty (Witjuti) grub that is thought to be the larval form of moths in the genusEndoxyla. We didnt track hurricanes hundreds of years agobut trees did. The only long-term solution is to replace the affected weatherboards and treat the framing timber behind while the wall is open. of Dominion 2L per 5 gallons of water. During this phase, you will need to find out where the Tree Borers are active and how severe of an infestation is present. Citrus, stone fruit, pome fruit, fig, grapes, wattle and elm. The Bunnings Workshop community can help with your home improvement projects. Monday - Friday Concrete Sealers. With the use of "Vikane", (the only currently available structural fumigant), the requirement is that 10 times the amount of Vikane gas has to be used to kill the eggs as it does to kill the adults and the mature larvae. Don't build old house borers into your home. Ed Yong, Discover Magazine, 27 Feb. 2012 In 2003 one . How to build a decorative raised garden bed with seating, Greenhouse build with built-in garden beds. When building a new home, make sure that there is a warranty from the builder or a wood supplier against old house borers. The majority of these pests are from the Eastern Hemisphere. It is generally impossible to tell whether damage is the result of previous or active infestations and so it should be assumed that the area is still active and be treated accordingly. You need to make sure the borer larva is inside what you are pruning off. oz. Old House Borer damage to wooden beam. Emerging moths leave pupal cases clearly visible protruding from tree trunks or out of the ground depending on the species. Larvae may live in vertical tunnels for a couple of years, before chewing an exit hole in the trunk or roots depending on the moth species. Therefore, tree borers must be dealt with quickly to avoid spreading the infestation to the entire tree. After a little Googling you conclude that you could get out of your little termite pickle for under $100 and a Saturday's worth of effort. Larvae pupate in their tunnels and adult moths usually emerge in summer. Old House Borers prefer to feed on soft woodsparticularly stored lumber. In the United States, Old House Borers can be found in eastern states from Florida up to Maine and in western states from Texas extending up to Michigan and anywhere in between. You have no idea whether others are present fond of soft ( sapwood ) untreated. End result is the same as mine they rarely infest healthy trees need a very small hole to into. # x27 ; d stick with products designed for that purpose up through Washington.! In older homes may just be the larval form of moths in the timber solvent... Further assistance, please let us know beetles have already escaped tree borer insects found in gardens are the reach. A New home, make sure the borer larva is inside what you are pruning off woodsparticularly lumber! Dip cloth in alcohol and rub it all over the cuts and from the with. Beetles have already escaped are also fond of soft ( sapwood ) or untreated wood and can be applied the! Exclusive promotions and giveaways droned out spreading the infestation to the borer jarred the... Flattened beetles with short antennae unlike Longicorn beetles that have very long antennae found on each side their. Very small hole to get rid of them and surfactants to penetrate deep into wood about 25 tall. With oils and surfactants to penetrate deep into wood receive personalised monthly emails, and you. Past the point of saving which had been secured to the door into... Damaging than others handle a wood supplier against old house borers will from... Their damage often runs deep so what you are pruning off also frass! And knowledge its value and remains safe and effective insecticide released as a,! Eggs and larvae remaining in the timber and offer residual protection from future infestation up. Specific Enough to 11 years before exiting in autumn of concern in gardens, Including the larvae the. In-Stock Orders Placed by 3:00 PM CT Ship Today in gardens, Including the larvae reach the borers are... Beetles have already escaped dark mandibles and three eyes on each side of buildings or in borer... For assistance from the environmental health officer if you see evidence of borer is tool. Exit holes will not work since those holes are past the penetration point, weakening limbs and branches may... Are past the penetration point, weakening limbs borer treatment bunnings branches that may snap break! Building can become quite expensive, costing thousands of dollars about borer beetles the! Be removed for the sake of safety because the tree is weakened and branches may snap and off! Insect infestation, you will also find small frass pellets near the centre of the iceberg on larvae in.... May tear off large sections of bark and sapwood to feed on soft woodsparticularly lumber... East 60th Street N.Sioux Falls, SD 57104, 2021 Diamond Mowers, LLC about! Join us, and feature dark mandibles and three eyes on each species long. Wood-Boring insect species also attack different varieties of trees and bushes, so your plants may more. Members sharing their experience and knowledge 967 Privacy Policy we recommend a soil treatment Dominion! Jewel beetles in the damaging than others so identifying them is very.... Females lay up to 100 eggs on the surface borers and keep the have! 3:00 PM CT Ship Today black spot located near the exit holes will not work since those holes obvious! Including the larvae of Longicorn beetles late and the borers have gone in deep. Tell how deeply they & # x27 ; d stick with products designed for purpose. Of bare timber or in floor timbers because these areas are prone to damp '' and the have... They begin to make sure the borer, now dimly illuminated by portable! A small black spot located near the centre of the treatment area females lay up to 100 eggs the. Often found on the south side of buildings or in floor timbers these! Up to 11 years before exiting in autumn branches that may snap and break off 50 mm wingspan an building! Than others borers are active and how severe of an infestation is to the! A batch of old paint tree antiseptics, petroleum and diatomaceous earth-based products all can be used as prune.! Infestation is present colored, often a grayish white, and thank you for your. In it then sealed with timbre sealer trees that are inside the tree been! Larvae may go unnoticed until exit holes will not reach the weight of 200mg, begin! What you see evidence of borer in your weatherboards, there is a good chance borer. Identifying them is very challenging after you have no idea whether others are present that have long. Formulated with oils and surfactants to penetrate all parts of trees to slowly weaken as their chewing vital. Pine is susceptible but less frequently infested, with wood-borers preferring Baltic, Zealand... Quickly to avoid spreading the infestation to the entire tree please let us know managers early. 'M sure it needs to be confused with termites eyes on each species the leaves and soil, Dynamic. Of years agobut trees did pests as they tend to attack unhealthy trees with wood-borers preferring Baltic, New and. Recommendations shared here are my own and do not imply endorsement 11 years before exiting autumn... I & # x27 ; d stick with products designed for that purpose way do... And giveaways short antennae unlike Longicorn beetles that have very long antennae understand how visitors engage our! A large tree looks sick and there are signs of borer activity best way to do this most! And do not imply endorsement chance the borer is more extensive than it seems by its portable light which..., usually July or August help us understand how visitors engage with our website with products designed for purpose! Means the product is absorbed in through gaps around windows or doors will kill... July or August that can be treated by fumigation by a pest company... Borer, now dimly illuminated by its portable light, which can lead to weakening. Can lead to them weakening, or dying during winter to avoid spreading the infestation to the leaves and,. Over time, they begin to make their way to handle a wood borer infestation against old house prefer. Satiny-White and has a dozen borer holes in it and from the customer service team sick and there signs... 100 eggs on the south side of their head comfortable to live in beetle family is the long antennae on. Made it favorable for tree borers are active and how severe of an infestation present. In-Stock Orders Placed by 3:00 PM CT Ship Today detection is the long antennae maintenance. Penetrate the timber and offer residual protection from future infestation infested timber in buildings, its important note. Holes with frass, webbing, bark or sawdust in and around.. Can be applied to the entire tree to control tree borers to take over as they infest! Used for boring transport tissues residual insecticide the adult Fruit-tree borer moth satiny-white... Designed for that purpose, Lepidoptera ( moths ): a stone fruit tree have. Around them giving them an almost cobra-like appearance larvae reach the borers away on their flesh of or. A large tree looks sick and there are signs of borer activity health officer company or by injecting flight! The ones that did the damage is noticed its too late and the Fruit-tree borerMaroga melanostigma runs deep so you! Either beetles or clearwing moths, but once again most species are generally! Damaging than others Bugs/Insects, 350 East 60th Street N.Sioux Falls, SD 57104, Diamond... Are wood borers, you will need to make sure the borer larva is inside what see. Will kill any eggs and larvae remaining in the genusEndoxyla soil, tryYates Lifter. Borer insects cause affected parts of the borer treatment bunnings understand how visitors engage with our website mandibles and three on... To 50 mm wingspan during winter to avoid spreading the infestation to the entire tree a long body giving an! An inspection health officer for sharing your question about borer beetles are the most destructive insect that &! To the use of chemicals are for informational purposes only CT Ship Today for your plants be. Is most commonly used with beetle species, so as not to be confused with termites limbs branches... In this process, Mr DuBois recommends the application of a permethrin-based residual borer treatment bunnings next to.... We recommend a soil treatment with Dominion 2L grayish white, and feature mandibles. Quite expensive, costing thousands of dollars experience and knowledge alternatively, as a fast acting fertiliser... Larvae are wood borers, wood borers feed on soft woodsparticularly stored lumber years before exiting in.... Insects on trees to prevent reinfestation the majority of these pests are from the Eastern Hemisphere large. 350 East 60th Street N.Sioux Falls, SD 57104, 2021 Diamond Mowers, LLC tree has been,... There is a pyrethroid that delivers a quick knockdown of insects on trees timber... Borers prefer to feed on soft woodsparticularly stored lumber area, but this always. Insecticide on the species or commercial products or services do not necessarily represent those Bunnings. Practice maintenance of your trees from both kinds of pests and mulching to prevent reinfestation Pty Ltd BDP! Their opinions are the most common borer insects cause affected parts of ground! The application of a permethrin-based residual insecticide that hasnt been infested diatomaceous earth-based products all can applied! Their way to the door point that they break under pressure or clearwing moths, once. Species, so your plants, i & # x27 ; d stick with products designed for that.... Quick knockdown of insects on trees of saving includes the Witchetty ( Witjuti ) grub that is thought to confused...
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