It has nothing to do with other tools. Load time is always going to be an issue. Even thought theres more potential for errors, it doesnt mean there will be errors. A square peg and a round hole can both be perfect examples of each and yet not work well together. The limit isnt the language, its your current skill level in using the language. Very interesting information. If the human eye cant tell any difference, then whats the point? I have used some CSS to style the text, but not the design. I agree that there will always be some people that cling on to tables, but I dont think we will have to suffer too much for much longer. Choosing the right storage format is crucial as it affects your disks The person usually chose a complicated path to solving the problem when a much simpler path existed. My questions and concerns are genuine and not an effort to get CSS lovers to defend themselves. Sure you can say they just need to learn more, but sorry, they didnt. And if I gave offense at all as well I also apologize. The language allows web developers to regulate various style elements and functionalities, like layout, color, fonts, and therefore the formatting and display of HTML documents. Then you can use divs inside your table. You can respectfully disagree, but Im still going to say youre wrong. Ive been studying the Eric Meyer CSS books, so I am picking up CSS quickly. I agree with what you are saying, however I think with the advancement of HTML 5, tables will start to disappear. True. Kind of ironic. 2) Faster Load Times Because of Lighter Code I remember load times being a major issue when I first got started but it doesnt seem to be the case anymore with so few people on dialup. I will use them to learn more about CSS. Not exactly the kind of thing thats going to make me want to help you/. Other people would find it just as easy to code the same layout with css. It wasnt my intention. In fact your reply only makes it clear you dont know to build sites using divs and css. Take two developers, one who is fluent with tables and one who is fluent with divs, hand them a layered PSD file and ask them to code a web page to see who finishes first. Then, I can see how they styled it in the source code. Discover the best hard disk format for your Mac! Feel free to contact me if you want me to develop the home page without tables. 4. Learning to layout an entire site with divs and css is the hardest part, but I promise itll be worth it. I honestly dont care what they call it.. as long as it still works like tables. In the best case scenario youd be adding at least another table cell to get another block of information compared to adding another div for another block of information, which would grow our code equally. CSS (divs) are more accessible Both tables and divs can be coded to be accessible or inaccessible. It is easy to customize a web page as it can be done by merely altering a modular file. 1. Theres no need for a Did you read the post? If you are designing using CSS for layout, cool! Table cells cooperate very well with each other, the way everyone expects things works. IMO, performance claims made in the absence of benchmark testing are the definition of hype. Very amusing. I too started out doing HTML with tables, and as soon as I saw the CSS light, Ive never been able to see it any other way. No matter how many times I see this question or people making an argument on behalf of their opinion, the technical answer remains the same. I hope this will show some good ways to the others. Sounds like you arent going to see any extra advantage here since DreamWeaver takes care of the changes. I also think that more code means more work for a search engine spider. Maybe Ill have to write a post on styling tables. What Im saying is the entirety of your layout shouldnt be one table inside another inside another. bootstrap requires a container, row, and something equal to a td but I cant recall which. From what I can see most people who argue against css simply havent taken the time to learn to master it. That you had a problems on a site you were developing doesnt mean my tutorials arent accurate. I also think it looks promising. The conclusion isnt that it takes a long time to communicate in Spanish. It still ends up being less code than you would use for a similar table based design. Download a free sample from my book, Design Fundamentals. The form on the bottom left of the homepage is an html feedback form through http://www.freedback.com. Times have changed. Its more about making sure your code for structuring the page and your code for styling that structure arent woven too tightly together. Covering popular subjects like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, SQL, Java, and many, many more. When I do use tables for layout, its often a 1 row table with 2 columns, and its because there were no semantically correct tags that use the correct rendering that would work for IE6. If you need to create a modern site that supports an older browser, CSS imposes huge costs. After making the changes we need to confirm the compatibility if they appear. By To remove double borders, take a look at the example below. I disagree about it being more code. html. This is rubbish. Regarding flexibility, I can see your point about how divs/css can make it possible to flip columns around by only making changes to a css file, and have those changes propagate to many files. Years ago it moved away from tables and towards divs and css for layout. I didnt create the overall frame to the conversation. So, if thats the structure it uses the same amount of code. What Im trying to figure out is the benefits in using CSS for LAYOUT. Once a again, thank you for the info! If you arent its not because of the language. It sounds like youre good about keeping your code clean, but more code means more chances for error. Just for the entirety of your layout. My question to you is Why frame this debate in terms I had my old table based page done in 1/10th the time that Ive spent just trying to find some CSS code that accomplishes what my old header table didand when I started it I knew NOTHING about tables. By using our site, you One thing Ive noticed in your tutorials is that your not very accurate with alignment. The fact that order matters even with divs invalidates a lot of the arguments table haters constantly throw out, but considering were trying to layout documents in the first place, it makes sense that order matters, otherwise the whole semantics argument would be totally out the window too! My point is that there are other ways to achieve this benefit. Thanks Emma. Teams. Divs are like blocks that stick together when near each other, but with a little pull you can separate them and do something else with them. I speak English fluently. Im simply adding another piece to it. With many sites (big, e commerce sites for example) having many different sections of text and images and other media throughout a page the code just grows and grows, taking browsers longer to load page content. This topic often leads to discussions that arent this thought out. Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages, and no technique is designed to be used in isolation. Theres really not a lot of css needed for layout. The whole display gets shuffled. I dont want to use tables but Im finding it harder and harder to justify not using them. Nothing you said is true and most of it doesnt make any sense. Most of the time when someone presents code showing the complicated css they needed the problem was their general approach. Long Run Maintenance 5. w3c standards are useless 6. structure and content css vs tables round II. Notepad is for pros. I am in the middle of a major project that we tried to code with proper CSS, but its incredibly frustrating and time consuming. Ive seen these performance claims for div over table all over the web, and many of them assert much faster, rather then simply faster. Space on the server for all of my clients sites is generally 1/16 of capacity. If you click through on some of the links in the post or just do a search for css vs tables youll come across a lot of the reasoning why some prefer tables. I think making your structural elements independent is the better option. By the way I forgot to mention it when I commented on your post, but I did enjoy reading it. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. With a table-based layout the only way this would be possible would be to go into every page of your site and change the underlying structure. After-all the 3 column layout with equal height is referred to as the holy-grail in css, enough said! One debate Im honestly curious about is the best way to go about table type content with CSS, such as using the actual table properties, using display: inline, using float: left, etc wheres that write up? Youll compare each of the arguments against another based on relevant data. Early on you had to use tables to layout a site well. There are multiple levels which creates confusion for non-developers and beginners. With the 4 methods if its important to a site to support older versions of IE then sure dont choose the method which might not work with those versions. Wish me luck. I look forward to the day when a page renders the same way in all browsers for specific CSS statements. The defaults only come into play if you dont specifically tell the browser what to use. The rest is a necessary evil to get the design into the medium. the ability to do this is what switched me from using the table-based layouts I was first taught. element: Notice that the table in the examples above have double borders. Do I have to have a separate div for each line? However. Is it possible that there are errors in my tutorials? Compared with traditional tables, web pages using Div + CSS technology are more friendly for search engine indexing. There are SOME layouts that to use entirely CSS requires an inordinate amount of extremely messy code to represent. Ive done that for people before. LOL, Im not advocating tables b/c they are infintesimally slower then divs. I designed each of these websites for clients using tables, while formatting the text in CSS in Dreamweaver: animalarkpetsutah.com Web Explain the advantages and disadvantage of using stylesheets; Use CSS to create web pages. If you find yourself needing hacks then most likely you havent thought out your structure all that well. Nah, i disagree.. if im the only one whos going to work with the site, i go for tables, its 1000x faster and easier to get a decent layout. Thats actually where the hype is. I really resented (and it sounds like many of you do too) all the time I had to spend to get a site to look as it was intended for ALL users. I thought my question BTW why css layout over table layout' was clear from the context but apparently not. CSS is a standard across the board. If you need a quick salary estimator, that comes out to be about $48.18 per hour. Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages. One instruction can control several areas which is advantageous. CSS based design is unquestionably superior to table layout, but due to sheer laziness the practice of table design has held on. Itll be interesting to see how it develops and also what kind of browser support it gets. Im not suggesting you should never use an html table anywhere. Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? Ive looked at the page you linked to before and have it bookmarked. CSS handles the design and feel a part of an internet page. I dont use DreamWeaver and you dont need to add fixed dimensions everywhere to make divs work. Your tutorials are really only half-done and stop at the parts where css begins breaks down. I never said I prefur tables. I do have a very fast development process which involves slicing an image file from my designer, using a tool called Image Splitter. Youre welcome to send me an email of fill out the contact form and we can talk. In my career I have worked with two types of people, fanatics and realists. However, the industry moved on from them a long time ago. At first its confusing since its such a different approach, but once you make it through the learning curve its obvious that the div/css combination is a much better and more flexible approach to building sites. The places where this occurs has problems with that flow. Im thinking something in the way the code was set up is preventing that from happening. Regardless the table div comparison above is not accurate. : Get certifiedby completinga course today! Thats not the case. To design in CSS is far better, by the subject of order, maintenance, accessibility, navigability and thousand reasons more. With CSS, what works with one browser might not always work with another. Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. However, I dont think thats the main reason to choose a css layout over a table-based layout. Again all I said was faster in this post and 10ms is still faster. They seem to work quite well for many people who arent you. If you develop to standards at most youll need to tweak a few things for Internet Explorer and usually only older versions of IE. And yes it is true that you dont much need extra code to get things to work for IE. I cant tell any discernable speed difference between a table layout and a CSS layouts load time. Why You Should Avoid Tables for Web Page Layouts CSS is the best way to build web page designs Share Flipboard Email Table of Contents Tables Are Not Nice article. I just said they were faster, which you proved. What were you supposed to use? I do understand your point. No one is saying that a div can do more than a table. I hardly ever have to write more than a few lines of code specific to IE. Like others have pointed out, fixing display bugs related to just about any css based layout often takes entire release cycles, just to get ruined even more by some other dopy designer. A table does. My old webpage is ugly (www.dragora.com) so I started to develop a new page (www.dragora.com/newindex1.asp). My point was they arent the same thing and so to learn how to use divs you should learn the strengths and weaknesses of divs and not try to force the strengths and weaknesses of tables and table cells on them. He takes a layout done in tables and works to change it to divs and css. Thanks Rami and interesting analogy. It helps us to determine the changes within the position of web elements who are there on the page. Its a great way to learn. 5. I also kept all my university textbooks just in case I would need them guess what? biscotools.com. One argument the css side always uses is that having your presentation in a separate file makes the site easy to maintain. I certainly havent seen anything to support the validity of these remarks. Thats why I wrote this post. 2. The flexibility is in your html structure. You can make css work with IE and it really isnt hard. Theres simply less code to create a div than there is a table with a row and cell. I hope I wasnt coming across as bashing tables. Time is money. I have tried to learn css with online tutoring (lynda.com, http://www.w3schools.com/w3c/w3c_css.asp, etc.) I hope I make it clear, but something tells me many of the people were talking about arent reading the entire post. A 10 MS difference is meaningless. 8.1 Introduction to Style Sheets . Both Fixed and Variable database extents can only be larger than 2 GB when largefiles are enabled with an Enterprise Database license, the OS is enabled for largefiles and user quota/limits allow. You can still develop an accessible site with tables. A div-based layout is: easier to maintain less code and less This can provide evidence that will back-up a particular choice. As we add more to the pages design the table complexity continues to increase compared to divs. In this case, it is almost impossible to get CSS only to render this as desired, either the width or the height of the side banner will be wrong, or the background image will appear to disappear or not be long enough, or be too long, or the content will bleed over into the side banner if you change the width of the browser. A list? What css function does that? Many people are able to build sites using css as a layout and getting them to work cross-browser including IE without any difficulty. Easy to learn: JavaScript is easy to learn. Feel free to email me and if you dont mind waiting a bit Ill be happy to help. The key is understanding that you dont really have to do as much as you think. We all came to web design in our own way and with our own skills. Menu. Accessibility issues arise more frequently due to excessive coding ok so this can be attributed to bad coding but its such a common issue that it has to be taken into account. My primary UI guy is a CSS ideologue and spends half his time fighting with stylesheets to make it work in every browser. Table cells are dependent on the table, and the rows and other cells in the table. Not so much about being able to have your changes update across the site, but on the single page itself. I think, though I havent used them in years, that tables are far superior for site maintenance in that you do not have to adjust sizes, just add or take away a table cell. CSS changes are device friendly. But using tables and styling them completely with CSS is just as effective as CSS alone. Spanish is a beautiful language that many people use to communicate quickly and effectively each and every day. Im not questioning the benefits of CSS in general. Heck, even IE8 does a decent job of rendering CSS layouts. Many of these include the ubiquitous explanation of browser two pass rendering of tables. Which CSS framework is better Tailwind CSS or Bootstrap ? Im sure with html5 some people will be converted to using all css layouts, but Im also sure many will still cling to tables as they do now. Browser support for most of css is as consistent as it is for tables. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. Of course that depends on the developer more than the code itself. If you get where Im coming from, please help me understand using logic. Id rather use the more forward thinking approach, but again to each their own. With a simple table structure the extra time might not be noticeable, but as the structure becomes more complex with more and more tables nested inside each other it is noticeable. 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